Las series de Méjico de 8 reales de Carlos III y Carlos IV son las que, habitualmente, se han creído más falsificadas / copiadas, por su «premium metalífero», o buena ley, en el comercio con China, ya sea en Birmingham / Sheffield-Reino Unido o Boston, US, de época, Bulgaria actual u otras localizaciones o momentos a lo largo de la historia. Efectivamente, lo son y no se precisa ahondar en el tema puesto que hay diversos estudios al respecto.
Lo que propongo con esta serie de entradas es que también Lima y Potosí son / fueron falsificadas, en mayor o menor medida, incluyendo Fernando VII. Aquí dejo los datos. Como veis, no es tan evidente la falsedad de las mismas y de ahí la inclusión, presuntamente, por parte de algunas casas de subasta en lotes para su venta sin posible reclamación posterior.
Quantification of sample 8R1788POTOSI
R.M.S.: 0.000
Sum before normalization: 102.8 %
Normalised to: 100.0 %
Element Conc.(%)
1 Ag 92.58
2 Cu 2.81
3 Cl 2.27
4 Na 0.95
5 Ca 0.40
6 Si 0.38
7 S 0.21
8 K 0.13
9 Al 0.12
10 Pb 0.09
11 Mg 0.05
12 P 0.02
Ensayos XRF llevados a cabo en Espectrómetro científico Panalytical Axios. A grosso modo se busca Au a partir de 100 ppm. Su ausencia determina que el proceso metalúrgico de fundición no se corresponde con la época de acuñación por lo que puede colegirse la no autenticidad de la moneda. Microscopía electrónica no añadida, corroborando falsedad.
Aquí la importancia de la máquina. Para que no sean mis palabras
http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=110145&whichpage=3
swamperbob
MathieuMa You say:
Quote:
It was checked by a spanish specialist, and went through XRF analysis.
More can be read about it here :
http://blognumismatico.com/2012/05/…8-de-mexico/
I read the thread completely and the supporting report. The owner seems to WANT the coin to be genuine and he seems to be reading the results to achieve that wish. The credentials of the specialist are very good. Josep Pellicer I Bru is President of La Asociación Numismática Española and is an author of several books on earlier Spanish coins and ancients.
I am concerned as to the casual nature of the «authentication» by this person regardless of his qualifications. The owner notes the process is simply a subjective opinion by one man – a qualified one. But the nature of the inspection is not given. Was anything other than a loupe used? How long did it take? Did he make any cautionary disclaimers?
The owner uses the XRF tests as a «Coup de grace» to prove his case.
There are several SERIOUS problems with the authentication as presented. The XRF device used by this «new» testing firm (which the owner of the coin has been involved with since its inception) was essentially worthless as a method of proof the coin is genuine.
The Niton XL3T 980 is a hand held XRF devise that provides a level of accuracy that is good for a junk yard purchase of scrap metal but it is not capable of testing for the trace contamination of gold that must be present to authenticate the coin. If you refer to the website for Niton you will notice this model is not recommended for precious metals testing. It is a general industrial tester. The stated error rate for the silver content (91.8 % average) is plus or minus one quarter of a percent. That result is actually too high for an original. The results DO NOT MENTION gold at all. There is about 1% of the content missing which is referred to as «other trace elements». That is simply NOT ADEQUATE as an XRF result.
So, far from being proven genuine – the results seem to indicate the coin could just as easily be a Numismatic Forgery made from 91.8% silver and 7.2% copper a few weeks ago as it could be a genuine coin made in 1748.
Como sabéis, mi participación está vetada en la mayoría de casas de subastas españolas excepto, de momento, Áureo, Herrero e Ibercoin, por lo que son estas casas las que aparecen por motivos evidentes. En ningún momento reclamo nada ni a Áureo ni a Ibercoin puesto que compré las monedas intuyendo su falsedad, ahora demostrada. Gracias a ambas casas por su profesionalidad…duda…aunque quizá sea simplemente una estrategia más de marketing…certeza… desde luego no puedo decir lo mismo del resto de «profesionales» de las subastas numismáticas patrias.
Gráfila (segmentos del exterior) sin dintel no termina en el borde/canto, posiblemente no concéntrica con radios no dirigidos al centro. Asimetrías comunes. Desgaste irregular. Tipos discutibles. Peso: 26,77 g Diámetro / módulo: Irregular 42 mm (41,82 a 42,12 mm). Click en la imagen para agrandar.
Cantos a 180 º buscando superposición inexistente/dañada/no detectada del cordón ¤o¤o¤o¤o
Imágenes al microscopio
Iré subiendo varias monedas y sus correspondientes datos a lo largo de esta semana.
El debate que se genere y/o preguntas al respecto en http://www.imperio-numismatico.com/t77060p216-falsas-de-subastas#858587













































I am certainly going to celebrate when the silver fundamental price finally rises above market price! It is just so difficult for me to believe the god’s (pathogen killing) gift to mankind element can be valued so low for so long. I think of all pathogens engulfing those paper debt FRNs that circulate, just disgusting! I can’t help but think silver was created to be perfect pocket money. If we could only stick to the wisdom imbedded in our constitution. How many books did Jefferson read to become so impressively educated and wise?
Thank you much for this info!
If several additional hundreds of tons of physical gold purchase would not add a single once of strain to the gold market, why are you losing your time with this gold basis story ?
RD: Sorry, there is a half-formed statement hiding in a half formed question. Could you please clarify both?
What I said is just it is obvious that if apple would buy such quantity of gold (everything else being equaled regarding gold purchase ie nobody would deferred or canceled gold purchase in order to buy this gold iPhone), it would not change dramaticaly the global gold market.
But, it does not mean that such increasing physical buying pressure, would not increase the physical demand/supply equilibrium for a given fiat equilibrium price.
Indeed, if gold was such plentiful (at these fiat level exchange) and if a potential new big physical gold buyer would have not importance, it would be useless at this stage to follow the gold basis as there would be permanent strong contago.
PS : sorry, English is not my primary langage and I have big difficulties in order to transcribe nuances into my comments but I hope you will get what I generally mean…
RD, I knew exactly what you meant so don’t feel bad.
While I am getting used to it (I am a slow learner) I think some of the attempts at irony or satire are too cryptic and only muddle the message. For those who live and breathe gold it makes perfect sense but for those trying to learn it can make you feel like you are at a Star Trek convention and everyone is speaking Klingon.
opusnz,
Not sure to have rightfully undertsood your post, still due to my poor English sorry.
The gold basis “believers” seem to be very sarcastic (or more) on other gold “promoters” and between themselves : it is maybe the time to team up with dan norcini and martin armstrong !
Besides, I remember years ago fekete stating that the gold basis cannot be manipulated contrary to the gold price, but I did not remember what was the irrefutable evidence of this statement (maybe because I missed them I agree). Indeed, suppose for the sake of the mind, that deliveries would be “forbidden” (just a theorical problem !) in the comex : would it change the relative values of the future contracts ?
Would it be possible that gold basis results would be a little different in non US markets such shanghai (in Mainland or in the free trade zone) ? If yes, is it meaningful for the theory ?
Yes I know are surely just a few stupid useless questions as the basis oracle is omniscient…
RD: If Apple buys a few hundred tons, that might affect the price of gold. Especially if there were no corresponding selling of gold (e.g. someone sells gold jewelry to buy an Apple Watch which is basically gold jewelry). That is different from my point in this Report. A few hundred tons is *NOT* a third of the world’s gold. The official estimates (which I believe are understated) are 170,000 tonnes.
It might also affect the basis. As you note, if the only change at the margin is a new buyer of a few hundred tons, then gold metal becomes scarcer. At least until the price rises.
I try not to be sarcastic, and at the same time point out the economic nonsense (e.g. Apple is buying 1/3 of the world’s gold) and the self-serving promotion. I think this is a matter of integrity. Whether you agree with the basis theory (which is really just an arbitrage theory of markets).
How would one go about trying to manipulate the basis? If the market wants gold metal, selling futures will only push deeper into backwardation. The only thing central banks could do is sell gold bars. I would not regard that as “manipulating the basis” so much as squandering the national provenance, spending the treasure that belongs to their people.
I will ask you also to please not be sarcastic.
Months of religiously reading these posts and I still struggle to understand. I do get the general idea, so I keep reading. =)
Do you think that the day we get this “backwardation” we are looking for, that there will actually be physical gold available to buy for the average man on the street?
I am self taught and have no formal schooling in economics…..but something seems amiss, could the price of gold in dollar terms plummet on the paper market while no physical gold be available to exchange our fiat currency with at my local coin shop?
My thoughts on can the basis be manipulated http://goldchat.blogspot.com.au/2010/07/basis-does-not-lie.html
“Now your retort may be that the fact that the trusting investor was willing to accept fake unallocated allowed the manipulation of the basis to turn backwardation into contango. You would be correct, and that is the point of my scenario. The basis is therefore reflecting reality, the reality that there are idiots prepared to accept paper gold.”
More at the link.
FYI I think this is an interesting way to look at the gold silver ratiohttp://worldcomplex.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/gold-silver-ratio-over-20-years-in.html